I’m sorry, that’s simply not true and mechanically impossible with the way the Bell 47 is rigged.
Flapback: As you start to accelerate, the helicopter will pitch up, if you don’t take any further action with the cyclic. I don’t see this happening at all.
Are you modelling dissymmetry of lift and phaselag?
As for the control response being spot on, I also strongly disagree. It has nothing to do with how the 47 flies. Seriously.
Well as someone fairly new to helicopters, I’ve been learning a lot with all these different terms in heli physics, thanks to this thread.
The more i fly this model in the sim the more I get used to it. Funny enough, I thought I was going to have some issues with the honeycomb yoke flying and it turns out it works very good lol. On par with X-Plane helis just as well, IMO.
Edit: My settings in the sim heli manager is on realistic, have not tried experimenting with the settings.
I thought trim was going to be a issue, as stated in other threads and surprisingly it’s not a concern for me using the honeycomb I do have to hold a little forward pressure with speed. Still learning about dissymmetry of lift. I guess when the retreating blade losses lift then RBS can occur. Nice to hear this is going to be fixed. Fascinating learning this stuff. 
I ordered some VKB sticks coming in the mail from last week curious to how they are going to perform. Hopefully they can be reliable and give somewhat close precision to the warthog controller. Would be nice to have a extension to put on the stick. Would love to get the pro flight trainer puma but that’s not going to happen anytime soon lol
I am going to test this in the sim here in a little bit, been trying to research exactly what Flapback is.
I guess this is what they call the balloon effect with helis ? I’ve been curious about this. But haven’ paid to much attention to it yet. I watch one of the videos on youtube that talks about a term called cushion creep takeoff where once you set the collective in this case sealevel to - 1500 feet 21" give or take i can exit IGE transition to ETL and release forward pressure to climb out without touching the collective
Similarly to a plane the more thrust being applied the more the nose wants to come up under power which then would require nose down trim to relieve forward pressure.
Here’s a video talking about what I mentioned above starts at 22:28, to describe what I’m talking about.
Hi, I did -30 like you posted it, my first pattern was much better with this settings. I have a hotas warthog with heli extension. Quite happy with it.
Glad that helped. I’m finding it actually a very natural bird to fly now, it’s well behaved and predictable. It took a bit of time to get used to but not that much, really enjoying it now. I’m wondering if Mr Implicit there has an issue with his hardware setup, because what he describes really doesn’t match my experience of flying her.
What controls are you using?
I found the default 80% cyclic sensitivity to be the major cause of a lot of head scratching for me at first.
I have the helicopter stability at 15% and yaw at 0%.
PFT Puma controls.
I have a home made cyclic and collective. It feels and behaves similar to a Bell 206.
However. I did a small experiment.
In VR I’m getting 45fps and it’s laggy
In 2D, I’m getting 55fps and it’s decidely better.
Still got a complete lack of flapback, though.
Do you use arduino? RJ connector or USB?
USB/Arduino/Freejoy.
Again, no issue in any other sims (or any other planes in MSFS)
what about these settings?
by default they were 80%, 0%, 0%
…which makes perfect sense for most people who have desktop joysticks.
I like to add a little stability to make up for the lack of seat cushion (inner ear) input.
IRL you sense so much about what the ship is doing before your visual reference changes.
In the sim, unless you have motion, you’re behind the aircraft.
as far as flap back, or un-commanded pitch up after ETL transition, I agree it seems less pronounced than my R44 experience.
@belatu42 The default is 80%, 5%, 0% for Realistic setting. I haven’t changed any of these settings except to disable engine governor. As far as your settings go, it’s all with what feels good for you and your setup. I hate tweaking settings as with msfs having to tweak settings is bad enough. So I just leave at default since release, for me handles great as I’ve gotten used to it. I wanted to experience what the dev considers to be “Realistic”.
Just wanted to add some thoughts about some test I’ve done. I noticed when trying out my VKB’s sticks that came in the mail today, they perform great rock solid very accurate however, I have better control with my honeycomb yoke. Which surprised me. Maybe because of the long travel in the yoke shaft itself and no dead zone, explains the better control. I can see where folks with the extension for the warthogs would see great results along with the puma etc. Love to test setups out just expensive.
This is why I love VR, although not perfect of course, I get that sense of motion and visual reference changes etc. It really does add to the experience. I noticed no matter what I’m flying, weather fixed wing or this aircraft (Bell47), my flying in the sim has improved a lot. However, I still fly this helicopter very well in 2D as I get more time under my belt with this flight model in testing but I prefer VR.
To the extent of how accurate this is I couldn’t tell you, I’ve never flown a B47G or any other helicopter IRL but weather subtle or not, there does seem to be Flapback modeled in my testing. It feels like I would expect it to be based of flying the helis in X-Plane.
After taking some time testing this, I’m getting Flapback. As I am exiting ETL and the more energy speed I’m carrying the nose wants to come up for me and I have to apply forward pressure to reduce altitude without changing collective. Other wise the helicopter will keep climbing and will eventually bleed off speed. This is my experience. I have not tested with the governor enabled. Only thing I can think of.
Just wanted to add my thoughts about the matter and to say, the helicopter feels really good to fly for me and the more I practice with it the better I get. I haven’t had this much fun in the sim in awhile.
Edit: I’ve just done so more testing to be sure, what I’m saying is accurate and when I take my hands of the controls after ETL 40-50 mph the nose shoots up it’s not subtle either i have to immediately apply forward pressure other wise bad things happen lol.
-Robert
Although I appreciate this strugle for realism, I think it is a step too far. We have heard may people who actually fly this helicopter or another. But another developer once told me that among 100 people who fly the heli there are 100 opinions.
So I invite you to look at it from the other side: With hundereds of hours in all kinds of helis on all kind of simulators I was very far from being able to hover a real heli with an instructor. Not even when he controlled pedals and collective. Im my opinion this brings us back to what simulations is: It’s great fun and everybody may use controlls he likes and have fun! 
The discussion is always welcome of course 100 different pilots will describe the same physics and aerodynamic principles 100 different ways. Control setups vary wildly as well.
I am a sim pilot with 1000s of hours of experience flying multiple types (all under 12,500 though, never been interested in the larger ships). I also am a licensed private pilot rated in all Robinson types.
So I am able to give my opinions on the flight model with a reasonable degree of rookie confidence.
I have never, however, flown a Bell47 G2-A1 IRL so some of the behaviors could be associated with the type, not the flight model.
I can tell you that every sim I have flown has a lack of feedback surrounding ETL, mostly because it’s so hard to visually perceive what is happening. Here is the 100 pilot part…
I don’t know a good way of describing to a new/student rotor pilot how the burble feels and what to expect, more importantly what to do, as the aircraft is transitioning through these aerodynamic situations. You have to sit next to someone experienced and they will guide you. Being a sim makes the last part a little harder. Even if you have a virtual instructor right next to you, your control setups will most likely be different, and even if they are force feedback they won’t be mechanically linked and making simultaneous movements.
With all of those limitations…I think that the FlyInside team has done a great job with this initial model in the sim. There is a lot that feels right. It brings me back to the days when I first found HTR for FSX. This is rivaling my desire to fly X-plane helis, especially in and around the 3D photogrammetry areas.
The settings I posted are what feels most realistic to me for my PFT Puma and Rift S setup from my experience flying R22s, R44s & R66s. The R22 and R44 really want to pitch up a lot coming out of ETL accelerating to 45-55kts. It takes a large amount of forward cyclic to maintain the acceleration and not climb. The R66, not so much.
This model does want to pitch up, I just expected more, but it’s most likely how the real aircraft feels.
The sinking while hover taxiing is still giving me a hard time though. I struggle with it whether the artificial governor is on or off. After approach and coming to a stable 3-5’ hover at my landing spot. I find the helicopter sinking all the way to skid contact when taxiing forward if I don’t add 1.5-2.5" of MP.
It could be that the Bell 47 has a lot more lag in collective and throttle response than I am used to and I just need more practice.
Edit: Maybe it would be good to add an adjustable setting for the collective axis response like the yaw in the heli manager? Not sure if that’s possible or practical?
Same set up and running 80,20,0
You will quickly come to almost a stop in the '47 if you don’t move the cyclic significantly forward after ETL.
Here, I’ll get a very gentle pitch-up at 60mph and the it’ll pitch forward again and it’ll slowly wobble back and forth.
It definitely, as you mention, got issues in hover/hover taxi. Even pick-up is weird.
@belatu42 Thanks, for your feedback and insight. I am defiantly humbled by your experience in RL as well as the sim. As someone who is just learning all of this for the first time in the world of helicopters, there’s a lot to take in and keep in mind.
This totally makes sense and couldn’t agree more. There’s just some things that are very hard to explain and convey across without actually having the experience. Especially in a simulator environment
This makes me happy, to think that we can have a decent flight model in msfs that begins to rival X-Plane is a achievement. When I first flew this thing in the sim it bought a smile to my face and can only get better from here.
I have noticed this too. I have to play with the collective back and forth with the throttle to maintain hover taxi without sinking or coming in contact with the skids. Then there’s time when i get the settings just right and don’t have to touch the collective. I assumed maybe the wind and some aerodynamics IGE and the inherit nature of the B47G possibly at play.
Hi. I’ve just joined the forum.
My experience with the heli is the same as Implicit’s. I think part of it is the heli addon, and part of it is MSFS2020’s added latency while in VR mode (I generally only use VR), which feels like it’s at least doubling the input latency compared to 2d mode and making reactions to cyclic harder than it really would be. I hope MSFS team can reduce this in future updates.
It would be great if the FlyInside team could bring it too their attention
Hi. I just joined the forum to report I have the lag issue as well. I have a Virpil setup, with a warbird base (no extension) When I move the cyclic in the 3d cockpit, there is a noticeable lag between real life stick movement and animated. This is clearly a bug and not anything related to purposefully coded damping of flight control surfaces, etc. - the stick should not have a noticeable (very noticeable) lag.
I have not noticed the problem on any other aircraft. I really hope this is brought to Asobo or whoever’s attention.
I am a big fan of the module otherwise.
edit: I’m not in VR, I use trackIR. I am not 100% sure the problem is specific to this aircraft, it’s possibly just much more noticeable in a heli. I think the lag is way more pronounced in this module though.
Thanks
Noted and is being looked at, strangely in VR and with my Warthog I see zero lag ?? With your Track IR is there any lag you notice in other aircraft, stock or otherwise ??
Tony
